The Boston Rescuer
Online Edition

". . . knowing that in the Lord your labor is not in vain." — 1 Cor. 15:58

CNN:  THE POINT WITH GRETA VAN SUSTEREN
Abortion: Getting the Picture
Aired: June 26, 2001 - 20:30   ET

This is a rush transcript and may have innacuracies.

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT

ANNOUNCER: THE POINT with Greta Van Susteren.

Who is supporting, performing, or even getting abortions in your state? His Web site puts their pictures on the Internet.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are making a record, a data base of people who are actually involved in slaughtering babies.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Is this free speech in action? Or a disaster waiting to happen?

Tonight's POINT: "Abortion -- getting the picture."

The Supreme Court's summer recess is just around the corner. So it's time to look ahead at what cases, and whose faces may be there in the fall.

Now from Washington, Greta Van Susteren.

GRETA VAN SUSTEREN, HOST: What do you think about abortion? If you support a woman's right to choose, how do you feel about anti- abortion activists posting your name, address and even your picture on the World Wide Web?

If you are on the other side, and believe abortion is murder, what would you do if you could find the names, addresses, and now, the faces of people in your town who support, provide or have gotten abortions? These are not hypothetical questions. It is all as close as your computer.

Tonight's "Flashpoint": "Abortion -- getting the picture." Here's David Mattingly to show us where.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DAVID MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): All it takes is an Internet connection, a Web browser, and a few mouse clicks to find the controversial Nuremberg files posted by the online anti-abortion activist Neal Horsley.

NEAL HORSLEY, WEB SITE CREATOR: The thing the Nuremberg file's Web site is doing is reminding people that doctors who kill babies, even if it's authorized by the Supreme Court might find themselves on trial someday, in the same way that the Nazis found themselves on trial in Nuremberg.

MATTINGLY: The site lists names of abortion providers: doctors, clinic owners, administrators. It came under intense scrutiny in October 1998 following the murder of New York obstetrician Barnett Slepian. Slepian was killed by a sniper's bullet through the window of his home. Afterward, Slepian's name appeared on the Nuremberg list with a line through it crossed off by Horsley.

HORSLEY: We don't want to see anybody die, but the fact is 3,000 babies are going to die today, and that fact has been ignored for the last 25 years.

MATTINGLY: But critics labeled the site a "hit list." Other names crossed off include John Britton, murdered in 1994 by anti- abortion activist Paul Hill; David Gunn, also murdered in Pensacola in 1993. Some names appear in gray: Canadian doctors Garson Romalis and Hugh Short, each wounded in separate attacks by snipers.

Also on the list, abortion patients who have died, some of those cases dating back to the 1970s. Horsley's site was scrutinized again in 1999 after an Oregon jury handed down a $107 million verdict against anti-abortion activists. The activists created wanted posters of abortion doctors. The doctors argued they were being targeted for violence. Horsley was called to testify on behalf of the defense.

HORSLEY: The fact is what we have done is perfectly legal. We've done exactly the same evidence accumulation process that the authorities go through in accumulating evidence on every criminal in the U.S. of America.

MATTINGLY: Last March the U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals overturned the Oregon verdict, saying unless an activist directly threatens violence then what he or she publishes or posts on the Internet is protected as free speech.

HORSLEY: We believe that the court decision will open the door to a return to something like freedom to expression in the abortion debate.

MATTINGLY: Click to Horsley's site today and you see animation of dripping blood, graphic photographs of aborted fetuses, writings from Horsley justifying the deadly bombing of a Birmingham, Alabama abortion clinic as "an act of war."

DR. WARREN HERN, ABORTION LAWSUIT PLAINTIFF: The general message from the antiabortion movement is that they will accept any level of violence to impose their will on others and to threaten us.

MATTINGLY: Dr. Warren Hern, whose name appears on the site, is among hundreds whose names are listed by Horsley. Abortion doctors, clinic owners and employees, in some cases even their spouses. But also: judges, politicians, public officials, and celebrities. The names on Horsley's lists range from Bill and Hillary Clinton to Janet Reno, Everett Coop, and former senator Bob Dole, to Whoopi Goldberg, Jane Fonda, and Mary Tyler Moore.

(on camera): And that's not all. Now there is something new, taking advantage of popular Internet technology. Horsley is posting photographs and video of people entering and leaving abortion clinics.

(voice-over): Horsley recruits protesters to become reporters and photographers for his "Christian Gallery News Service," protected he says, by First Amendment freedom of the press. So far you can view pictures taken outside clinics in 12 different states.

David Mattingly, CNN.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VAN SUSTEREN: Joining me from Atlanta is the creator of the Nuremberg files Web site, Neal Horsley.

Neal, why the video of people going in and out of abortion clinics? Why do you have to do that?

HORSLEY: Well, why would the press cover any accident waiting to happen if we knew that somebody was driving down the road with an occupant that was fixing to be in a fatal accident, wouldn't we cover it as news? That's what happens to a woman who goes to an abortion clinic. Her occupant is going to be killed before she leaves.

VAN SUSTEREN: But Neal, the Supreme Court has said women can have abortions, so are you not invading the privacy or at least almost trying to incite something by putting this on the Internet?

HORSLEY: The fact that the Supreme Court has justified legalized murder has nothing to do with the responsibility of the press to cover newsworthy events, and it is news when human beings are slaughtered legally in the United States.

VAN SUSTEREN: Are you saying you are a journalist, Neal? Is that what you hold yourself out as?

HORSLEY: That's exactly what I am. I'm covering the news stories that you should have been covering. If the press had been covering the pictures of the babies who are being butchered in those abortion clinics for the last 30 years, this abortion war would have been over a long time ago.

VAN SUSTEREN: What are your personal feelings about some of the people who are on your list what you have crossed out, people that have been murdered?

HORSLEY: I think they are dead. I think they're examples of the fact that the abortion war will cost the lives of many more than just the millions of little babies who have been slaughtered unless we stop it in the United States. 

VAN SUSTEREN: What is your view of violence towards the people you have put on your list on your Web site?

HORSLEY: My view is, nobody who is listed on my Web site has ever had violence in any form at all.

VAN SUSTEREN: Well, what about the fact that some of the people on your Web site, their names were on the Web site, and suddenly they get crossed off after they were murdered? That indeed suggests there was...

HORSLEY: Nobody has been on my Web site before they were murdered. The only people who are on my Web site now with the names crossed off were added after they were killed. Nobody who has ever been attacked, who has been listed on my Web site.

VAN SUSTEREN: OK, what is your positiion on violence towards people who perform abortions?

HORSLEY: My position is that people who kill little babies are responsible for a heinous act and we should not be surprised if people rise up against them. That's why we have to legally stop legalized abortion or assassination and terrorism will grow around us.

VAN SUSTEREN: Are you suggesting -- and let me get right back to my same question: Are you for or against violence towards people who perform abortions?

HORSLEY: I'm against death. But the fact is we are killing little babies. People who slaughter innocent children put their lives at risk. I don't care what the Supreme Court says or what the federal government says, people who kill innocent babies are doing things that will incite violence against themselves and that has nothing to do with anything Neal Horsley says.

VAN SUSTEREN: OK, Stephanie Mueller is on your Web site, is she not?

HORSLEY: Yes.

VAN SUSTEREN: Why is she on?

HORSLEY: Because she is involved in some capacity with perpetuating legalized abortion.

VAN SUSTEREN: What capacity?

HORSLEY: I'm not sure.

VAN SUSTEREN: How did you get her name?

HORSLEY: People who I trust around the country, have given me the names of everybody that is on there and identified why. I think Mueller probably works for one of the abortion organizations.

VAN SUSTEREN: So you are willing to put people at risk on a Web site that has at least stirred some controversy when you yourself can't even vouch for why the person is on your Web site.

HORSLEY: I can vouch for the fact that she is in some way a figure in perpetuating legalized abortion or she wouldn't be there. There are several hundred people's names on the list. I did not make it my policy to memorize the resume of everyone there.

VAN SUSTEREN: All right, my thanks to Neal Horsley in Atlanta.
__________________

Now, for the other side of this passionate debate.

Joining me here in Washington is Stephanie Mueller, the director of public policy for the National Abortion Federation, an organization that represents abortion providers in the U.S. and Canada.

Stephanie, do you know why you are on this list and what's it like to be on that list?

STEPHANIE MUELLER, NATIONAL ABORTION FEDERATION: Well, I do believe I am on that list, because I support a woman's right to choose. And unfortunately a number of people who support a woman's right to obtain legal health care services on are that Web site. I'm obviously very concerned.

But I'm also concerned for the dedicated health care professionals who daily go in and provide safe reproductive health care services to women.

VAN SUSTEREN: But Neal says that none of the people on his list, because they were on the list, were subsequently murdered, that it was after the fact that he put them on the list.

MUELLER: Well, actually that's not quite true, because we do have a physician who was listed on the site and was attacked last summer. So that's actually not a correct fact.

And also we have other physicians who have received death threats after being posted on the Web site. You also have from the Portland trial the testimony of physicians like Dr. Warren Hern who had to wear bulletproof vests and engage in additional security precautions after being placed on the Web site. We feel this really is encouraging violence against abortion providers.

VAN SUSTEREN: What do you make of the fact, though, the case that you're talking about in Portland involving Neil, went up to the United States Court of Appeals for the 9th Circuit, and that court sided with Neil. 

MUELLER: Well, we do feel that ultimately, our side will prevail and that the judges will find that this represents treats against abortion providers. It's interesting, in that Portland case, the jury was... examined all of the evidence and did find that this constituted a threat; and even in their decision in the court of appeals, the judges wrote that they did believe that providing addresses of physicians did make it easier for extremists to target abortion providers for violence. 

VAN SUSTEREN: But the problem is that the court said that the site could still exist, that it was First Amendment, and Neil was allowed to do it, whether or not you like it or not, that Neil could do it.

MUELLER: That's true, and in fact, the National Abortion Federation has been working for some time to contact Internet service providers. We believe that contacting them and educating them about this site will result in it being pulled down, and in fact, almost all of the sites we have contacted have pulled the site down once they have looked at it.

VAN SUSTEREN: But you know, the funny thing is, Stephanie, is that I got on
it today, my whole staff got on it today, we looked at it, David Mattingly got on it today -- people can get on it, this is the Internet.

MUELLER: Unfortunately, there are always Internet service providers out there for Mr. Horsley to go to, but we will continue in our efforts, both by supporting the appeal of the 9th Circuit decision and also contacting the Internet service providers.

VAN SUSTEREN: What is the status of the litigation that came out of the United States Court of Appeals for the 9th Circuit? Do you take it on?

MUELLER: Well, it's being petitioned right now for (UNINTELLIGIBLE) reception, so we are still waiting to hear about that, and obviously we support that and hope that that will be successful.

VAN SUSTEREN: Has the violence toward abortion providers and toward clinics sort of subsided? I haven't seen much of it lately in the news.

MUELLER: Well, we have had a slight decrease in extreme violence, but obviously we did have the murder of Dr. Bart Slepian not very long ago, and we've also had a continuation in other forms of harassing and violent activity, so we continue to be very concerned, and obviously we will continue to look out for our providers to make sure that they are protected.

VAN SUSTEREN: Give me an example of the kind of harassment that people now receive?

MUELLER: Well, it can vary obviously, but on a day-to-day basis, we have providers who will receive death threats, we have providers whose children have been followed to school. The information on this Web site makes it very easy for extremists to target these providers for daily harassment and intimidation.

VAN SUSTEREN: Can you actually link Neil's Web site to any particular violence?

MUELLER: It's hard to say. We do believe that it is a blatant invitation to intimidation and harassment, and we also believe that it is providing a tool to an extremist who does want to take violence into their own hands, so we obviously feel very strongly that it needs to come down.

VAN SUSTEREN: All right. My thanks to you, Stephanie Mueller.

MUELLER: Thank you.

END TRANSCRIPT